Unofficial Transcript, Human Rights Voices

373rd Meeting of the UN Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, New York, UN Headquarters

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November 10, 2015	

CHAIRMAN:  Ladies and gentlemen, ambassadors, I declare open the 373rd Meeting of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People.
The provisional agenda for the meeting has been distributed by the Secretariat.  If I hear no objections in particular, the agenda is adopted.
It is so decided.
Allow me now to inform you briefly about some of the developments that have taken place since our last meeting held on 5 October.  
On 16 October, the Security Council held a closed meeting on the Situation in the Middle East including the Palestinian question.  
On 20 October, the Secretary General of the United Nations traveled to the region to help defuse the current tensions between Israel and Palestine.  He met with President, His Excellency Mahmoud Abbas of the State of Palestine, and with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, as well as with other senior officials.
On 22 October, the Security Council held an open debate on the Situation in the Middle East including the Palestinian question.  During that open debate our colleague, Her Excellency Miss Maria Rubiales de Chamorro, delivered a statement on behalf of the Committee.  A copy of that statement is included in the folder before you.  
The holding of the 40th -- the marking of the 40th Anniversary of the adoption of General Assembly Resolution 3376 of 10 November 1975, the 40th anniversary of that resolution is being celebrated or commemorated today.  That resolution established this committee.  I'd just like to say a few words about the history of our Committee.
In 1975, the General Assembly requested the Committee to recommend a program of implementation to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their inalienable rights to self-determination without external interference with national independence and with sovereignty, and to return to their homes, this is their inalienable right and to the return of the property from which they had been displaced.  
In 1976, the Committee did submit a plan to the Security Council but it was unfortunately not adopted.  The General Assembly then decided to remain seized of the matter and did so by mandating our Committee to continue advocating for the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and to assist Palestine in its path to freedom.
Over the years, we have supported efforts to peacefully resolve the conflict.  We have in particular done so by organizing meetings around the world to raise international awareness of the question of Palestine, and thus, on each year, on 29 November, we celebrate the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People here at United Nations Headquarters in New York and at United Nations offices around the world.
Our Committee -- and I think it's true to say -- have not -- was not intended to see its 40th anniversary.  The hopes and the expectations were that an end to the conflict would have been achieved sooner.  Unfortunately, this time has not yet come, and that is why our committee and its work are most needed, and we must redouble our efforts towards achieving a two-state solution.
Recently, we witnessed some achievements, such as the recognition of the state of Palestine as an observer nonmember state of the United Nations.  We have also witnessed the Declaration of the General Assembly of 2014 as the International Year of Solidarity with the Palestinian People.
Through a resolution of the General Assembly, the flag of the state of Palestine was raised at the United Nations headquarters here in New York just a few weeks ago.  This is more than a symbol.  It is a reflection of the efforts of -- towards the Palestinian people regaining their dignity.
Palestine is experiencing a disastrous situation, and it is true that our Committee needs to reassess its strategic guidelines and approach as we work to fulfill our mandate.
Another event that occurred on the 27th of October was that His Excellency Mahmoud Saikal, Permanent Representative of Afghanistan, presented his credentials to the Secretary-General.  I'd like to take this opportunity to warmly welcome Ambassador Saikal and to welcome his nomination as Vice Chair of our committee.
Before concluding, I would like to thank the Division of Palestinian Rights, which is continuing to assist the Committee as it fulfills its mandate.
I'd like to know if there are at this time any comments or observations.  If there are no comments or observations, we can move to the next agenda item, which is the situation in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, and developments in the political process.  In that regard, I would like to give the floor to His Excellency Ambassador Riyad Mansour, Permanent Observer of the State of Palestine to the United Nations.  Ambassador Mansour will brief us on the latest developments in the occupied Palestinian territory and on the political process.  Mr. Ambassador, you have the floor.
PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Thank you for convening this meeting.  Thank you for your briefing, and happy birthday to the Committee.  40 years old is a very mature old age in the history of human beings, and I totally agree with you that nobody envisaged in 1975 that we will still be in this business and convening meetings and conducting activities, seminars and organizations in the quest of attainment of the inalienable national rights of the Palestinian people.
Nevertheless, we are very grateful to the Committee, to you, Mr. Chairman, and to all to the leaders, to the Division for all the remarkable things that you do in supporting the struggle of the Palestinian people for attaining the same objectives, including the end of occupation, the independence of the state of Palestine, and therefore saving the two-state solution.
Before I also continue my briefing, I would like also to welcome two friends with us, who will be speaking, I believe, on Item No. 5, Professor Atif Kubursi and Brother Elkhafif from UNCTAD, who will be, I believe, presenting a paper about the cost of occupation and ideas related to that subject.  So I am sure that you'll be welcoming them, you know, at that moment, but I would like also on behalf of the Delegation of the State of Palestine to the United Nations to welcome them among us, and we will be listening very closely to what they have to say.
Mr. Chairman, also allow me to thank you and to thank all of our colleagues, members of this Committee, who have participated in the ministerial extensive open debate in the Security Council in which 60 different countries and committees, including you, have participated in that debate.  And of course, we are still observing and engaging in the unfolding ramification of that meeting and the meeting before it in the Security Council as it relates to the situation of the popular uprising of our people on the ground, including the efforts by the French, including the draft presidential statement that they proposed, and also including the draft by New Zealand and the ideas suggested by Spain and others.  I will deal with these issues at length when I deal with the political development of the situation in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem.
But with regard to the situation on the ground, as we all know, that the popular uprising led by the Palestinian youth is now in its second month.  It started at the beginning of October of last month, and so far the Palestinian people have lost 80 martyrs, all civilians.  A large number of them are children and women.  And 3,000 have been injured by live bullets and rubber-coated bullets, in addition to about 6,000 others who have suffered all forms of injuries, mainly from inhalation of tear gas.
And close to 1,000 Palestinians have been detained.  Some of them are still in prisons, others detained and released, including hundreds of children.  And I'm sure that you were able to see one of the many videos documenting crimes of -- amounts to execution-style, as you know, killing of many Palestinians, youth, men and women, and savage interrogations by Israeli security forces in the occupied territory.
I was watching just the last two days a video of an interrogation of a 13-year-old boy, and, you know, you see that -- the savage way in which Israeli interrogators are torturing and physically abusing this child, and beating him up and doing all kinds of inhumane, savage behavior of the security of the occupying authority, just only to name one of the many -- few episodes of the tragedy of the Palestinian people in the occupied territory.
Of course, this popular uprising started in the Old City of Jerusalem around Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Al-Haram Sharif, spread to other neighborhoods of occupied East Jerusalem, and then engulfed all parts of the occupied Palestinian territory, including not only East Jerusalem, but also the Gaza Strip and the communities of Palestinian Arabs who are citizens of the state of Israel, of what is known as the Palestinians inside the green line.
So this is the situation that we are facing.  Of course, what is really interesting in this connection, that this façade and big, illegal lie promoted by the Israeli occupying authority for nearly 50 years, that Jerusalem is the eternal unified capital of the state of Israel.  This big lie did not survive the test of two weeks, the first two weeks of October, in which the behavior if the Israeli occupying authority was a behavior that the city is not united, it is divided.
So when one sees the Mayor of West Jerusalem, the Mayor of the Jews in Jerusalem and the settlers carrying a weapon himself, asking all Jews in the city to carry weapons -- in other words, to create a vigilante militia of the Jewish population of West Jerusalem and the settlers in East Jerusalem, and the besieging of the Palestinian Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem, such as, you know, Sur Baher and Sharafat and other areas, then one can come to the conclusion that this city, by the action of the occupying authority, is not united, it is divided.
So this, of course, popular uprising reached its -- this level because of the continuous extremism demonstrated by the Israeli rightist government and settlers that they have harnessed and helped and gave all kinds of support, including weapons.  And when you have such an extremist situation, then it becomes expected that every now and then we see those extremists barging on the Al-Aqsa Mosque and Al-Haram Sharif, trying to have permanent presence and to divide it in time, and to divide it in place, which is offending the entire Palestinian worshippers in Al-Aqsa Mosque and Al-Haram Sharif and led them to defend the sanctity of this holy place for Muslims not only in Palestine, but also worldwide.
And these incidents by the Israeli government, including members of the Knesset, including the Deputy Speaker, when he one time led groups to go to Al-Aqsa Mosque and Al-Haram Sharif, and even climbed on top of Al-Haram Sharif, raising the Israeli flag, all these things offended the entire Palestinian people and led to this situation of defending these sites.
Of course you add to it the failure of the political process.  People do not see a political horizon, so the hope is diminishing, and the Israeli extremism is on the rise.  All these elements, and other elements related to them, led to this popular uprising, which is still unfolding.
Of course, this popular uprising, as I said, was led by the Palestinian people in occupied East Jerusalem, and of course, occupied East Jerusalem is under the total security control of the occupying authority.  And if the occupying authority cannot have peace and tranquility and security in an area totally under their control, then they should wake up and realize that they cannot continue to suffocate the Palestinian people and suppress them, and the only logical solution that will bring peace, bring tranquility and security for all is for the Israeli occupying authority to pack up its equipment and leave our occupied land of the state of Palestine, including East Jerusalem, where there will be peace and where there will be security for all.
But to think that they can impose on us a security solution, they are harvesting nothing but failure, and they are not going to succeed in breaking the will of the Palestinian people because, you know, the youth who are just basically using stones and, in certain situations, some frustrated youth, individuals, you know, they might resort to more -- to just an eye for something like that.  And in many other occasions, there are so many reported stories that the Israeli occupying authorities, they shoot, and on more than one occasion they throw a knife next to the dead person in order to say that that person was changing soldiers or security personnel, and that's why they killed them.
It is a savage way of handling riots and demonstrations.  There are so many ways of dealing with these situations, even if they exist, by just only injuring the individuals.  This is how they behave if the individual is a Jew.  They don't -- you know, trigger-happy, and not 12 bullets or 16 bullets in their heads and other parts of their bodies.  They might injure a leg or injure an arm, and then later on detain them, arrest them.
But in the case of the Palestinians, they shoot and kill, and then they ask questions, as was documented by a case of a teenager in Silwan.  In the early stages of this popular uprising, he was -- this youth was running away from settlers who were threatening to beat him up, and he was trying to get protection from the police, and the settlers were telling him, Shoot, shoot, shoot.  He shot him, he killed him, and then the policeman asked the settlers, Why did I shoot him?  And that was documented in videos, and I'm sure that many of you were so -- such savage behavior, trigger-happy security officers.
Just simply if he is a Palestinian or looks like a Palestinian -- and there were cases like the Eritrean in Beersheba or another Jew in another location that looked like a Palestinian, you shoot first, and then you ask questions later.
Now, with regard to the political situation, as I said, this popular uprising brought the subject of Palestine to center stage.  We all remember that in the debate in the General Assembly end of September, the last week of September, almost all leaders from the major powerful countries, including the P5, did not mention the subject of -- the question of Palestine in one sentence.
And it took only two weeks after that debate to see what we were all witnessing over the popular uprising led by the Palestinian youth.  And then we started seeing everyone talking about the Palestine question and what needs to be done with it.
And of course, that means that this brutality by the Israeli occupying authority and the settlers, including the armed settlers, led to this dynamic that we see of what to do with the Palestinian situation.  Those who think by having a quick arrangement in some capitals in the Middle East and exchanging commitment to say that, Yes, we will respect and honor the status quo in Al-Haram Sharif and Al-Aqsa Mosque -- and here I'm referring to Prime Minister Netanyahu.  Frankly speaking, Prime Minister Netanyahu cannot guarantee the respect of the historic agreement on the maintenance of the status quo on Al-Haram Sharif and Al-Aqsa Mosque.
Why do I say that?  Because when you create a very extremist situation of the settlers and, you know, getting away with murder, and the extremist rightists within the Israeli government who are also demanding that the Al-Aqsa Mosque and Al-Haram Sharif belong to them, and they want to build the Third Temple there, when you create a situation like this, how can Prime Minister Netanyahu control the monster that he created within his government and within the environment in Israel and among the settlers to really honor and respect this agreement?
So that's why, among the discussion, we are saying now we need two things from the international community, including the Security Council, one of an immediate nature, and one of a strategic nature.
The one of the immediate nature, we need to -- the Israeli occupying authorities are the ones who are escalating this situation by bringing tens of thousands of soldiers, police, security officers and armed settlers to unleash their brutality and ruthlessness against our people, including in East Jerusalem, and including in the Old City of Jerusalem and around Al-Aqsa Mosque and Al-Haram Sharif.
So therefore, all these militaristic formations need to be removed away from our people, from the point of friction, whether in the Old City, in East Jerusalem, around Al-Aqsa Mosque and in many of the areas where there are so many armed settlers who are threatening the life of Palestinian people, burning their trees, destroying their cars and, on certain occasions, burning families alive, such as the case of the Dawabsha family that we all know, in which a toddler, 18 months old, and parents, mother and father, and a brother were all burned, three of them to death, and the four-year-old brother still fighting for his life in a hospital since that incident in July.
So the first thing of an immediate nature is the removal of all these militaristic formations away from our people, for those who want to deescalate, because you cannot deescalate by conquering the will of the Palestinian people, because that will never happen.  We are a proud people, and nobody can break our will.  But if they want to deescalate, let them remove their militaristic manifestations away from the points of friction.
The second thing that we need, we need to guarantee the historic status quo.  And as I said, to guarantee the maintenance of the historic status quo, it cannot be done by listening to commitments from Prime Minister Netanyahu given to this leader or to that leader.  I think that may be one of the ways of maintaining the historic status quo, is by having possibly international observers to be placed in many parts of the occupied territory, including around Al-Aqsa Mosque and Al-Haram Sharif, to constitute a buffer between the Israeli military forces and the extremists, and the worshippers in Al-Aqsa Mosque and the dwellers of the Old City in Jerusalem.
Of course, this would bring us, again, to more elements related to providing protection for our people, because the issue of protection should be dealt with seriously at the UN by the international community, including the Security Council, including the disarming of the settlers, as it was called for in Resolution 904 of the Security Council, which was adopted in 1994 after the massacre that has taken place that led to the killing of 27 worshippers in Al-Ibrahimi Mosque in Al-Khalil at that time.
So, as I said, remove the forces, deal with the issue of protection, including the disarming of the settlers and guaranteeing the status quo in Al-Aqsa Mosque and Al-Haram Sharif.  That is of an immediate nature.  That could lead to deescalation.  That could lead to respecting the Palestinian people and their honor and their -- the fact that they are so proud, and that could possibly then lead to opening the door for a possibility of beginning a political process that could lead to the end of occupation, the independence of the state of Palestine, and therefore saving the two-state solution.
So the thing of the immediate nature was addressed by the Draft Presidential Statement of France, which is on the table of the Security Council.  We don't know what will happen to it.  And that's also led that some elements of what is contained in the Draft Resolution of New Zealand addresses some of these issues, not all of them.  So therefore, the Security Council, is it ready to shoulder its responsibility and to reflect a will that will side with the vulnerable, with the weak, with the people who live under occupation, and come to the rescue of the Palestinian civilian population, including by beginning a serious discussion on providing international protection?
In this connection, the Security Council is not alien to the issue of protections.  If you review Resolution 605, which was adopted in December 1987, after just -- at the beginning of the First Intifada, that resolution contained language calling for providing international protection for the Palestinian civilian population.  And the Secretary-General did dispatch a team to the region to deal with the situation and did submit a report on providing international protection to the civilian population.
Then Resolution 672, after the massacre that took place in Al-Haram Sharif in October 1990, after -- during the third year of the First Intifada, in which, according to that report of the SG, between 17 to 21 Palestinian civilians were massacred, and 150 were injured.  Then the SG decided to dispatch another team to investigate issues related to providing protection.
The Israeli occupying authority did not allow the team to go and to conduct its work, which was condemned in Security Council Resolution 673.  And another report was submitted by the SG that was dealt with in Resolution 681, in addition to Resolution 904 that was adopted in 1994.
So what I'm trying to say, that issues related to providing international protection and the temporary presence, international presence and observers were dealt with in previous Security Council resolutions and reports by the SG at that time, and issues related to disarming the settlers were also frequented and have been discussed.
Now, you add to that the legal study which was prepared by the Legal Department of the United Nations and passed by the Secretary-General to the Security Council in October, then there is a large volume of historical evidence and traditions in the Security Council related to the issue of providing international protection.
Then, if we see seriousness in dealing with the immediate issue that led to this massive explosion by the Palestinian people and the resentment to occupation, and their message is loud and clear, we cannot live any longer under occupation, and it is time for the international community to do something, not to keep watching and not to do anything, and not even to say what was said a few days ago in Washington, that nothing is going to happen until the end of the term of the current Administration.  That position is condoning and accommodating the ruthlessness of the Israeli occupation led by Prime Minister Netanyahu.
And it is tragic and unfortunate that some leaders, they do not do anything until the situation reaches its peak level of explosion and threatening international peace and security instead of shouldering their responsibility as leaders of important countries and to step up to the plate and to lead a process that is maybe similar to other processes that have been led, whether in the southern part of the United States in the case of our friends in Cuba, or whether what we have seen in connection with the Iran file, or what we have seen in Vienna in the potential of dealing in a collective way with the situation in Syria.
But it is the destiny, I assume, and the fate of the Palestinian people that some leaders do not pay attention to them until the Palestinian people themselves, they force that that issue is in center stage.  And I hope that this time that when they want to interfere and to do something, that it will not be too late, and we will not be in the midst of a religious confrontation between the extremists, or led by the extremists on both sides.
And we sincerely hope that the international community will act in a collective way to try to maybe adopt a resolution in the Security Council in line of what our friends in France have suggested, containing three major components:  The first one, timetable for ending the negotiation and occupation.  Two, the basis of a just political settlement and adopting -- we all know that the basis rooted in international law and UN resolutions and the parameters.  And thirdly, to have a collective process involving not only the two parties, but the P5 and maybe other important players, including Arab countries and others.
To that end, Mr. Chairman, the Arab Foreign Ministers meeting yesterday in Riyadh adopted several resolutions calling for international protection, calling for adoption of a resolution in the Security Council to -- that will support these elements that I referred to in the French Draft Resolution, and the Arab Foreign Ministers indicated that if the Security Council -- to fail in that endeavor, then that they will consider going for an emergency session in the General Assembly so that the General Assembly to shoulder its responsibility.
I wanted to share all these things with you, Mr. Chairman, as we celebrate the 40th anniversary of this Committee, and we hope that something significant will happen by the international community that will address the call of our people for ending the occupation and attaining their independence.  Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN:  I thank Ambassador Riyad Mansour for his must useful and informative briefing, and his comments in a potential initiative do exist, but how to develop this initiative further, throughout is the question.  Are there any questions or comments for Ambassador Mansour?  Namibia, Ambassador of Namibia has the floor.
NAMIBIA:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Thank you for the earlier briefing that you undertook to sketch a bit of the background history of the creation of this committee, which should have done what it has been established to do so far.  But since the situation is still what it is, there is no way we can give up.  We will have to continue our efforts.
Also, thank you for the briefing by Riyad.  It's very informative.  It is unfortunate that after 40 years the situation is still what it is today.  In some cases, it's even worsening to the extent that one kind of really loses hope in terms of the hardship that the people of Palestine still have to endure before the world can stand together on this issue.
It's unfortunate that we still see quite some divisions within the international community when it comes to this issue.  Some of the leaders seem to be ignoring the plight of the Palestinian people as if most of us were not from that same background.
In terms of the way forward, of course, our efforts should continue to appeal to the international community to put pressures where we can, to make use of the platforms that have been created by the United Nations to send the message out, and especially to engage the academics and the activists that are on the ground to assist us putting the current issues on the map.
It is therefore with that that we are looking forward to the later briefing by the experts that will brief us later.  We would definitely look forward to see what we would be able to take away from that briefing in order to influence the agenda of the Committee.  Thank you, again, Riyad for the briefing.
CHAIRMAN:  I thank the Ambassador of Namibia.  Any other comments?  If there are none, Mr. Riyad Mansour?
We shall therefore move on to our next agenda item, consideration of a number of Draft Resolutions on the question of Palestine.  As you know, you have before you four Draft Resolutions to be submitted to the General Assembly under Agenda Item 38, entitled The Question of Palestine.  The drafts have been updated to reflect the present political situation on the ground.  The basis of consultations primarily between the Delegation of Palestine and various regional groups.  The first three resolutions deal with the work of the Committee, the Division of Palestinian Rights of the Secretariat, and the Special Information Programme of the Department of Public Information of the Secretariat.  The fourth Draft Resolution deals with the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine.
For your ease of reference, the updated or new text in the four drafts appear in bold.  I would seek your indulgence to consider the drafts in English only, because that is the only version which is presently available.  The Bureau recommends the Draft Resolutions for approval by the Committee.
Before drawing your attention to some new provisions, I would say that the Draft Resolution renewing the mandate of our Committee notes with appreciation the efforts of UNCTAD to compile a report to the GA on the economic costs of the occupation pursuant to GA Resolution 69/20.  It also recalls our efforts and activities in commemoration of the International Year of Solidarity with the Palestinian People.
The second Draft Resolution renews the mandate of the Division for Palestinian Rights of the Secretariat and commends it for continuing to make a most useful and constructive contribution to raising international awareness of the question of Palestine and of the urgency of a peaceful settlement of the question.
In that resolution, the Secretary-General is requested to provide the Division with the necessary resources to ensure the implementation of all mandated activities.  The Draft Resolution on the Special Information Programme of DPI commends the department for the actions taken in the implementation of last year's resolution and renews its mandate to continue its initiatives, which effectively contribute to an international atmosphere conducive to dialogue and supportive of peace efforts.
Are there any comments on these drafts?  I see no requests for the floor from delegations.  The Ambassador of Namibia, you have the floor.
NAMIBIA:  Thank you, Chair.  I wouldn't blame you, because I'm too much in the color of your eye -- Well, thank you for the floor.  Well, just to commend the efforts that have been put into the drafting of these resolutions, as you have said in your introductory remarks, they are not new, except they have got a few new elements, but basically meant to update and to reinforce some of the issues that come from the reports that were submitted either to the General Assembly or to the committees in this regard.
They surely need all our support in order for the various divisions -- in our case, for the Committee to be able to continue its work.  Surely, we support the recommendations that have been made in the Draft Resolution on the Division to also continue its work.  All of us appreciate the efforts that you are putting into it, and are sure you're always at odds when it comes to the issue related to the financial resources.
We would definitely have added our voice to those that appeal for an improvement in the allocation of the necessary resources to allow the committee to do its work better.  The same goes to the issue of the Special Information Programme, which without we cannot do much, because they would be at the center of disseminating the necessary information to the various divisions, to the various parties, and we think the process of the activities on the ground, one would just have really wanted them to do more in highlighting the hardships that are being endured by the people of Palestine in the occupied territories.
But be it as it may, we definitely support the notion of having these resolutions, and hope, as usual, they would be passed through the General Assembly without a vote.  Thank you.
CHAIRMAN:  I thank the Ambassador of Namibia.  Are there any further requests for the floor?  Ambassador Riyad Mansour.
PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  And also, I want to thank my colleague and friend, the Ambassador of Namibia, for his contribution.  And I'm assuming that the drafts, the four of them, are being accepted by the Committee to be tabled and submitted to the Secretariat of the United Nations.
Of course, you know, when we involve in drafting these resolutions, we take into account several issues.  One is to try to update them to reflect the new developments and the realities on the ground.  And of course, we had to reflect things related to what is really happening, particularly since the beginning of October, in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, including touching issues of incidents of a terrorist nature by Israeli settlers, such as the case of Dawabsha.
So then it is the updating, it is the updating, including also the reference to Al-Haram Sharif, as one would see, for example, in the resolution, in Jerusalem, which is not before us here, but it is part of the package that will be submitted to the Secretariat.  So that the first element is updating to reflect reality, so that we are bringing the resolutions up to date and capturing the details of the new realities on the ground.
The second thing that also we take into account when we draft is to maintain the support by as many countries as possible, and by as many political groups as possible.  This also makes the exercise extra-difficult.  How do you, on one hand, address in the most objective and accurate way, the evolutions and the changes on the ground, and yet maintaining the votes that you'd like to maintain.
And here I refer mainly to one large political group, which is the European countries, so that that would make the exercise also extremely difficult, because we are determined to maintain the unanimous voting of the European countries on at least 13 out of the 16 resolutions related to the question of Palestine.  And they are the 13 related to the political situation, a political nature, not programmatic nature, such as, let's say, the Division or the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices.
And the third element is also to address the financial needs, and that is also a very complicated subject.  You know, some of it, which is the most complicated one, is that if there is a new PBI -- meaning that additional resources.  And that's what we tested in connection with the report that we'd like to have from UNCTAD.  And we did not want to see the change of voting of countries, let's say, from abstention to voting no, because that will be sending a wrong political message, although we might say that we have the votes, and then therefore we can maybe not pay attention to the sensitivity to some of the countries that are hostile to any increase of financial resources.
So then we have to be very creative in trying to get very close to what we need, and yet to maintain the voting as is, not to losing voting.
And the last element that I want to refer to in terms of the creativity of the funding is that -- and this is -- we resorted to the help of the Division, and we thank them for that -- of how we can make their life a bit easier in terms of how to deal with resources, existing resources and how to shift it in an appropriate way and to get rid of some of the restrictions that, while the resources is there, but it's not necessarily accessible to them as they wish, which I think that working with the Division, we were able to address some of these issues and to cater to the need of the Division.
With regard to UNCTAD, maybe we need to think in a creative way of resorting to some of the methods that have been resorted to by the Register of Damage Office in Vienna, in which they go and ask for voluntary contribution from countries to the financial needs of that program.  Then maybe perhaps we can be creative in addressing some of these thoughts with regard to what -- the UNCTAD need related to submitting the extensive report that we wish that they do.
Of course, I raise these things because this year, in the Fifth Committee and in ACABQ, there is the adoption of the biennium budget.  And in our case, we have six programs that do have financial implications, ranging from UNRWA international staff to the Division to the DPI Unit, to UNCTAD Unit, to the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices, to also the program in Vienna with regard to registering the damage of -- the damages resulting from the construction of the wall.
So therefore, we have an effort that we all collectively need to exert in order to, minimum, to maintain the budget levels for the next two years of all these programs so that these programs will be able to carry out their mandates reflected in UN General Assembly resolutions.
And you know that in the Fifth Committee, things are very tough and complicated.  They don't adopt things by voting, they adopt them by consensus, and therefore you need to reach an agreement with all parties as to the funding process to be put in place.
I just wanted to say that, Mr. Chairman, since this is your birthday, mine as well, you know, be very extravagant in telling all the details of how we conduct our business.  Again, we need the co-sponsorship of as many as possible of member states to our Draft Resolutions, these before us and others in the Fourth Committee, the Second Committee, the Third Committee, in all the committees, and in addition to co-sponsorship, we need your support to be in the room and to vote in large numbers.  Help us this year in crossing, again, the 180 votes voting in favor regarding the resolution and supporting the right of self-determination to the Palestinian people.
This is a very important resolution.  The more votes we have there, then we can compete with Cuba, which today -- which this year they raised the bar to 192 countries voting in favor of their resolution versus two.  This is a very formidable task.  But if we can cross the 182 in our case, maybe a little bit more, make sure that all of your neighbors come and vote.  Make sure to convince everyone in your region to come and vote.  We need really to challenge ourself and to reach a formidable level of voting.  That is the least that we can do to say -- to send our salutation to the steadfastness and the struggle of the Palestinian people, particularly during these historic moments of the popular uprising.  Thank you.
CHAIRMAN:  I thank the Ambassador ... the same mobilization that saw us welcome the lifting of the Palestinian flag ... So we keep momentum and have as many cosponsors as possible.  And most importantly, you said be in the room. ...  the French, to ... Thank you.
If there are no other comments, should we consider that our Committee adopts these resolutions?  It's so decided.
In the fourth Draft Resolution, entitled Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine, the General Assembly expresses grave concern about the situation on the ground -- in particular, all acts of violence, intimidation and provocation that Ambassador Mansour just very clearly described.  All states and international organizations are encourage to pursue policies to ensure respect for their obligations under international law, including for the protection of civilian life, the promotion of human security, the deescalation of the situation, and the establishment of a stable environment conducive to the pursuit of peace.
The resolution also stresses the need for a resumption of negotiations based on clear parameters and with a defined time frame.  Are there any comments on this Draft Resolution?
Shall we take this Draft Resolution is also approved by the whole committee?  It's so decided.
Dear colleagues, the Committee, I believe, has just approved realistic and sensible drafts which should receive, as they have in the past, the large support of the General Assembly.  The delegations intending to become cosponsors of these four Draft Resolutions and which have not yet signed on to do so may sign the text once this meeting has been adjourned by contacting the Secretariat as soon as possible.
We'll move on to the next item on the agenda, which is the International Conference on the Question of Jerusalem, which is to be held in Jakarta on 14 and 15 December 2015.  That meeting will be followed on 16 December 2015 by the United Nations Civil Society Forum on the Question of Palestine.  The provisional programs are contained in Working Paper No. 7, which has been distributed by the Secretariat.
As indicated, this conference is being held to provide up-to-date information on the current situation in Jerusalem, including social, economic and legal aspects of life under the Israeli occupation.  A special focus is being given to religious sites.  To inform -- The purpose is also to inform policy and decision-makers, civil society and the general public.  It also aims to provide a forum to present ways forward on how to enhance international advocacy for a halt to the methodical demographic change of East Jerusalem, in particular, in and around the Old City.
Moreover, the conference would provide a venue for an open exchange among Palestinian international experts and practitioners, activists and academics.
Invited to the conference are high-level UN officials, all United Nations members and observers, other intergovernmental organizations, United Nations system entities active on the issue, members of the academic community and representatives of civil society organizations and the media.  I'd like to encourage all members and observers of the committee to actively participate in that important meeting.  Are there any comments?
If there are none, may I take it that the Committee wishes to approve the provisional program for the meeting contained in Working Paper No. 7?  It is so decided.
The next item on the agenda is the briefing on economic and social costs of the Israeli occupation for the Palestinian people by Mr. Mahmoud El Khafif and Mr. Atif Kubursi.  Before giving the floor to these very highly-recognized and eminent economists, I would like to share with members of the committee some information about our speakers.
Mr. Mahmoud El Khafif is the Coordinator of the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development Assistance to the Palestinian People Unit.  He is also Senior Economic Affairs Officer within UNCTAD's division on globalization and development strategies.  Since 2002, he has been one of the main contributors to UNCTAD's work on assistance to the Palestinian people in the areas of economic research, policy advice and technical cooperation.  
Mr. El Khafif is well known to our committee for his important work on the Palestinian economy, and for having participated as a speaker in several international meetings of our committee.  In particular, the seminar on assistance on the cost of Israeli occupation, which was held in Cairo in 2012. 
Mr. Atif Kubursi is emeritus professor of economics and also teaches in the elite arts and science program at McMaster University.  He is also a fellow of the Economic Research Forum and has taught economics at Perdue University in Indiana.  
He was also Senior Academic Visitor at Cambridge University and served as a fellow of the Economic and Social Policy Institute at Harvard University.  He served as Acting Executive Secretary of the United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia and Mr. Kubursi is also Senior Development Officer -- has served as Senior Development Officer at UNIDO in Vienna.  
He has over 250 publications, including 12 books, 150 journal articles, several technical reports and many chapters in books.  The committee appreciates that you have found the time to brief our committee on your very important work on the cost of the Israeli occupation.  
So without further ado and having welcomed you, I give you the floor, whomever will begin.  
MAHMOUD EL KHAFIF:  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and thanks for the committee for inviting us.  I'll get to the point right away.  We are not reporting the cost of occupation.  It is too big to submit in one report.
I'm going to start by mentioning one figure, which is a very simple figure.  The occupied Palestinian territory, Gaza, West Bank, including East Jerusalem since 1967 lost 2.5 million fruitful trees.  Today, they do have 11 million fruitful trees.  
The population at that time in 1967, 1 million between West Bank and Gaza.  Today, 4.6 million.  So we can imagine -- and this is not all the costs.  
Before leaving the floor to Professor Kubursi, I just want to say -- just give you a brief history about UNCTAD, the Assistance Palestinian People Unit.  The Assistance Palestinian People Unit was established in the mid-80s, was a resolution by the United Nations ... [inaudible] and at the General Assembly.  
Our original mandate before the establishment of the Palestinian Authority was to assess the impact of the Israeli policy on the Palestinian economy.  After the establishment of the Palestinian Authority in 1994 until the second Intifada, we have been producing a number of studies.  Just look at it.  Actually two after the second Intifada.  The nature of the study has changed.
Before that since the establishment of the -- in the 1980s until the second Intifada -- the ... second Intifada, if you follow about our -- follow our studies, you'll see that initially we were very hopeful.   
Most of the studies at the time assessing the potential of the Palestinian economy in the West Bank and Gaza, including East Jerusalem.  But after -- after the second Intifada in 2000, if you look most of our study is basically assessing the cost of occupation.  But we are doing bits and pieces.
Okay, now the second point we were not able to report to General Assembly on the cost of occupation what we are seeing, that this assignment or this task is substantial, and it cannot be done in one report, and it's extremely important and critical.  Why?  Because it's the only way for a just and lasting solution.
There cannot be a just solution without assessing the harm.  And if we don't assess the harm correctly, we are not going to have a lasting solution.  So that's why this exercise is extremely important.  
Substantial -- I just gave you one figure and I'll go elaborate further.  The figure of 2.5 million fruitful trees has been uprooted or vandalized.  We will talk more about that after I give the floor to Professor Kubursi. 
What has been done so far, and what I'm going to report to you, and basically was done on an ad hoc basis -- and ad hoc basis meaning what?  I mean, for example, our unit in UNCTAD, it's very small unit.  We are only two professional staff and one general support staff.  So we basically every year are producing a report to the United Nations Trade UNCTAD Board and as well one paper.  
So all the work done in the area of cost of occupation -- and we have reviewed that so far -- is done on an ad hoc basis.  Ad hoc basis mean a bit here, a bit there, but not in a systematic way, not in a way that we are making a full inventory of what has been done since 1967 and what has been done every year.
But the fact is since the year 2000, the second Intifada, the cost of occupation to the Palestinian people is increasing tremendously.  The last point that we're trying to deliver to you is, Yes, UNCTAD is the right agency to do this.  Yes, we have the expertise, but we cannot do it without additional resources.  
So basically this is the main point.  Now, having said that, I will -- I will also to thank you for the General Assembly, I mean, UNCTAD -- just consider UNCTAD in your General Assembly resolution 69/20 was actually a good appreciation, nice appreciation to our effort, and we are hoping to be able to make more contributions based on the directive of the General Assembly.  
I will stop here and we will pass the floor to Professor Atik Kubursi, which we're lucky to have him to work on us on just and preliminary assessment of the cost of occupation.  
ATIK KUBURSI:  Thank you, Mr. Chair, Your Excellencies.  The Palestinian economy Israel occupied in 1967 was a viable economy, one that sustained a growing population; at the time over 1 million people with a per capita income of around $1,500 in 2004 prices, what was considered at the time to be a middle-class, middle-income economy.
But now the story is a completely different one.  It's an economy and a population on the verge of collapse.  Actually, the last report by UNCTAD, which my colleague was involved in preparing, had come to the conclusion that the population in Gaza is now on the verge of living in unlivable conditions and that the economy might completely collapse.
Today, the unemployment rate in Gaza stands at 45%.  Over 63% of the Gazan youth are unemployed, and this is the highest rate of unemployment in the world.  Female unemployment is around 40% in the occupied Palestinian territories, but over 60% in Gaza.  And 40% of the Palestinians in the occupied Palestinian territories live below the poverty line.
Clean water is a rarity.  At least 90% of the Gaza water supply is compromised, and electricity is very sporadic, interrupted at crucial times, and rarely people have the chance of getting electricity between four and six hours.
The GDP growth rate was once growing up until 2006, took a dip and now is in a situation of dizzying decline.  And accurate assessment of these losses -- an accurate tally of these difficulties that the Palestinian people live under and have endured and continue to endure is absolutely necessary in terms of putting a magnitude, a number about the suffering of the people and the continuation of suffering and compromise of the capacity, their abilities to maintain a decent level of living and a capacity even to survive.  
It also might give us a chance to tally the -- what would require -- what would be required to raise the cost of transaction, the cost of occupation.  Israel has been able to live in a culture of impunity.  And these are not my words.  It's the words of Judge Goldstone, who was appointed by the United Nations General Assembly in 2004 to look at Gaza, and very quickly came up to the conclusion that what the Palestinians are enduring and will continue to endure is not just because of one war.  It's not because of one bombardment, but it is basically and fundamentally rooted in this occupation that continues to disenfranchise the inalienable rights of the Palestinians to self-destiny and to visit the kind of difficulties they continue to sustain.  
We want to basically define the range of values that might be needed in negotiations, as my colleague mentioned, not for compensation as much as to create what would be the parameters of a final settlement of this Palestinian dilemma.
The economic cost of the occupation is only meaningful though not as a substitute for any way of dealing with this issue as much as it is basically to preserve the options and choices of the people, to empower the people to deal with their life and to exercise their human rights.  
And when you talk about measuring the cost of occupation, you are basically talking about two approaches.  We almost typically speak of these two.  The first one is the income approach, and what you are possibly thinking of here is what would be the stream of income, the stream of revenues that people or businesses would be denied because of the occupation or breach of international law or international humanitarian law.  And what would it take in terms of doing things to compensate or to restore the conditions that people would be empowered to derive the same revenues and income.
The trouble with the income approach is that it's so good for courts because they love and like fixed numbers, but it does not really cover the entire range of difficulties and injuries that people under occupation tend to survive.
The utility approach is far better because it takes into account also the psychological suffering.  The loss of neighborhood, the shattering of the dignity of people, the humiliation at cross points, the inability of families to be together, and that this approach would take into account things that have really been in the past taken into account.  
Actually Jews in 1940s, but particularly the early 50s, under the program called Wiedergutmachung, which means in German to make things good again, we're able to derive not only income and property losses as a way of restitution, but basically and fundamentally to get a compensation for all the psychological suffering, all the difficulties they had endured under the Nazis, and this is basically and fundamentally one that would justify and support the utility approach.
The typical economic rationale for compensation is that people if they were left unencumbered, if they were able to behave freely, they will arrange their economic situation, use their scarce resources in a way to maximize the advantage they have, and that any situation that would encumber, any situation that would curtail would prevent the people from being able to arrange their situations to maximize their utility or satisfaction, that situation is basically what one need to take as a measure of the course of that infraction.
And what would take in terms to put back people on that highest level that they were able to achieve before the encumbrance would be exactly the indemnification magnitude that would be necessary to bring things to being what they were good again.  
What we really need here is basically to find a monetary value that would be metered on regular, systemic, systematic basis.  The moment here we have enormous number of programs, much of which have come from UNCTAD, from the World Bank, from so many areas that my colleague will go through with you.  But most of these things have been sporadic, have been ad hoc, have not been systematic.  
What we are basically and fundamentally asking here is can we have an institutional mechanism that would be tasked with a systematic -- with a continuous monetary metering and documenting these losses so that one is able to put a credible range on these costs that this occupation has visited on the Palestinian people.
The Palestinians have been denied access to their resources.  They have been subjected to a fragmentation of markets.  Everybody knows that you can take advantage of economies of scale by exploiting the appropriate size.  What the Palestinians have suffered and continued to suffer, and what is really becoming very costly, is that continuously the Palestinian economy is contracting into ... [inaudible] and small units that are not contiguous, that are not integrated.  They're not allowed to formulate a space that would be appropriate for economic activity.  
The Palestinians have been severed from the traditional markets.  The Palestinians are not allowed to trade with the historic and traditional trading partners.  They have been severed from the world in many respects.  The people in Gaza cannot really go beyond three kilometers in their water.  The Palestinians are unable to move between one village and the other.  So that contraction of space has completely emasculated their economy, compromised their capacity to use their space, and that space is not only in terms of geographical space.  It has also denied them a policy space where there would be a capacity, a representation where the legitimate government can nurture, direct, guide and promote economic activity.
The loss of economic space has been fundamental to their losses, but also one of many aspects where the Palestinians have really been denied the capacity to do these things.  And the legal precedents are many.  
I mean, in 1928 in the Burma Court with the national justice in the ... [inaudible] was very specific about those who suffer breach of international law, breach of international humanitarian law, are entitled to indemnification.  When it goes to the United Nations General Assembly resolution 194 that was continuously adopted and reaffirmed, it is extremely clear about the necessity of bringing back the Palestinian -- the right of return and to be compensated for all the losses we had gone through and then look at what happened in 1990s in the Pinheiro principles that were applied to Herzegovina, applied to Guatemala, applied to Afghanistan, to Cyprus, and then in the advisory opinion of International Court of Justice on the separation wall, but also in so many others, particularly in the Compensation Commission for people who lost property and values in Kuwait because of the Iraqi occupation.  All these people have been compensated.  All these people have been able to redress the damages and costs inflicted upon them, except the Palestinian people.
And what we're really thinking here is how, in what way can we institute and institutionalize a mechanism within the United Nations that would give teeth to the General Assembly resolution and allow us and you to give appropriate evidence-based, substantiated, systematic tally of the costs.
I'm going to ask my colleague if he would really go through some of the studies that had attempted to put a value on some of these losses, and then I'm going to take a minute or two to walk you through some of the issues that we have, even with these studies, so that a new mechanism can be put in place that would do justice to what the Palestinians have suffered and continue to suffer.
MAHMOUD EL KHAFIF:  Okay, just to give you an idea about what has been done in the past, and also to give you an idea about how substantial of the exercise we are considering here.  Most of the work done on what can be termed now as the cost of occupation has been done by UNCTAD, some by the World Bank and some by the Palestinians themselves. 
I'm just going to take you through a number of figures.  One of our studies that has been done about 2006, which by the way, there are a number of our studies here for any one of you who would like to collect.  I just brought some of the most recent ones.
But in 2006 we have made a study about the impact of the closure policy, the title closure policy between the year 2000 that's the eruption of the Intifada on September 28 in 2000 and 2005.  Our assessment indicate that the Palestinian economy lost about $8.4 billion of GDP, which equivalent to two year of GDP of the occupied Palestinian territory, two years of production.  The Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza kept producing for two years and they lost it.  That's that in terms of two years of GDP.  
Actually, by 2005 because of the closure policy and destruction, the productive base of the Palestinian economy in the West Bank and Gaza, including Israel, lost one-third of its capital stock.  In a sense, the machine, the Palestinian machine that was able to produce X service and goods, this machine lost one third of its capacity.  That's another cause that has to be added to occupation.
As I said before, between 1967, the Palestinians lost 2.5 million of productive or fruitful trees.  Today, there are about 11 million fruitful trees.  That's about 1 -- 20% or 25% of the olives, almond, all the product trees.  About 35% of irrigatable [sic] land is actually only 35% in the occupied Palestinian territory irrigatable land actually is only irrigated because of the water being used by Israel.  
The cost of this is about 110,000 jobs, about 10% of GDP; 10% every year.  That's what they lose every year.  In a sense, if the Palestinians are allowed to use the water to cultivate the land that could be irrigated, they could increase their income by 10% every year.  They cannot do that because of occupation.
Add to this about 10% of the most fertile land of the West Bank has been lost to the construction of the separation barrier, and I don't know if this is being captured by the colleague in Vienna, but I think the colleagues in Vienna, they are looking at the household level.  They are not looking at the macro level.  
About million dunams of Palestinian range land is available.  In a sense, only 31% of the land that could be used for grazing is available to the Palestinians, but the occupation is not allowing the Palestinian to graze or to have animal feed on 69% of their land.  
The Israelis over-extract water from the Palestinian share, thereby diverting 82% of Palestinian ground water.  All of this -- all of these are elements of the cost of occupation, and as I said before, all of these are done on an ad hoc basis.  
Fishing on the cost of Gaza, the fishing industry, they were allowed -- Palestinians were allowed only to fish in three miles.  Now they have extended to six miles, but that's much less than the 20 miles allowed under international agreements.   
Now moving about the area of policy space.  What is the policy space?  It's the space available to a policymaker to induce the economy, to make the economy more productive.  Actually, because of no policy space available to the Palestinian policymaker, and because of the Paris protocol, 10% to 20% of Palestinian public revenue that could be used for the social sector, that could be used to reduce poverty actually is being leaked to Israel, to the Israeli treasury.  
And we go on and we go forth.  Gaza in our last report, we said that Gaza Strip under an honest -- actually, Gaza Strip in the last eight years since 2007 is under an almost complete economic siege.  No factory products are allowed in.  Very little exports are allowed out.  
Not only that Gaza was under economic siege in the last eight years, but in the last six years Gaza experienced three almost full-scale military operations in which everything has been destructed.  That's also part of the cost of occupation.
The value of asset damage and GDP lost in the last two Israeli military operations -- that's 2012 and 2014 -- is estimated at $3.2 billion.  How much is that?  That's one year of production of the 1.5 million population in Gaza.  
And I don't want to take much of your time, but basically we are collecting bits and pieces here.  Also our colleagues in the World Bank, they did a study about Area C.  Area C is about 62% of the area of the West Bank, which basically is under Israeli control.  Before that, of course, we know our colleagues in Vienna, they are working on the damage caused by the construction of the wall in the occupied Palestinian territory, but I think our colleague in Vienna, they are working at the household level.  In a sense, it's more of a bottom-up approach and it doesn't cover everything.  They look at how much a household lost because of the construction of the wall.
But they don't look about the future stream of income if this land was available to the household, how much they would gain in the future.  Because actually when I kill a tree or when I take away a dunam of land, I'm contracting the potential income in the future.  And that's also part of the cost of occupation.
The Palestinian Ministry of National Economy did a study about three years ago, and they have estimated the cost of the occupation in one year about $7 billion.  That's about a full year of income -- of Palestinian income in the occupied Palestinian territory.  
Dr. Kubursi did some work before on the water and the lost opportunities.  He elaborated on the right of refugees in terms of reinstitution of property or in compensation and lost opportunities in line with the UN General Assembly resolution 194.
The point I'm trying to make here, all the figures I have given you, this is just the surface.  The exercise of the occupation, it should go back to 1967.  And I said before after the year 2000, the cost of occupation in terms of destruction, in terms of depriving the Palestinian people of their productive capacity, the term of vandalizing or uprooting trees.  We are talking about a mass study here that need to be done.
What we have done in UNCTAD and what has been done by the World Bank is just basically scratching the surface.  So to ask UNCTAD to do a report on the cost of the occupation, it would be -- it would be just a superficial thing.  But what we need to do as we go further is basically to make a comprehensive, a systematic inventory of ... [inaudible].  I'll pass the floor again to Professor Kubursi, and I'll come back to you after that.
ATIK KUBURSI:   I mean, what comes clear from all this -- and one would be lost in details.  If we were just to go and talk about so many dollars and so many cents, let's talk about what is at the root cause of this.  
There were three economists, distinguished economists, Sara Roy from Harvard wrote about de-development.  He attributed all this to the fact that the occupation has de-developed.  When the whole discourse of the states and accepted norm in the United Nations is to give people the chance to empower them to open their choices through development.  And what we're having here is that the occupation has derailed, has set back the Palestinians by undermining their capacity to develop.
What we're really talking about here is the cost of de-development.  Jeff Halper, an Israeli, came up and said that all this is because of all these mechanisms of control.  What you are really having here is a situation in which Israel has warehoused humanity.  It has frozen humanity within an open prison that curtails the capacity of people to improve themselves.  
I have written quite a bit on the mechanism subjugation.  I say what you have here is not just a manifestation of one policy, but a strategy, a strategy basically to prevent the Palestinians from competing with the Israelis, for keeping the Palestinians a captive market where now is probably the second largest market of Israeli product.  
What we have here is a situation in which the only way you can unleash the capacities of the Palestinians, the only way you can give the Palestinians a chance to continue to develop like the rest of the world is to lift this occupation, to dismantle this occupation, to end this occupation, and that would really require a massive effort and a systematic effort that we are talking about, the type of which that UNCTAD and through you could do.
[microphone out] 
So basically, I mean, again, there are so many questions here.  What could be ... [inaudible]-- sorry.  Are we going to have it sectoral?  Are we going to have a bottom-up approach?  Bottom-up approach mean what?  Mean at the household level and go up because -- are you going to have a top-down approach, in a sense, lost on GDP.  
This task is substantial.  It's a multidisciplinary.  It's not a one-shot thing.  And again, as I said before, the objective of this task a just and a lasting resolution to the Palestinian problem.  A just means that we need to know how much harm was done and if we know how much harm was done, I think we could establish a just solution and a just solution to establish a lasting solution.
Before ending, what we'd like to convey to you at the committee, that we ask UNCTAD is capable of doing that.  Yes, this is a very important and critical task that has to be done for a just and lasting solution.  We are ready to do it, but we cannot do it without the resources that we have now.  
If the right resources has been extended to us through the General Assembly, we would be more than happy -- not only more than happy, we are more than obliged to actually to fulfill this task, and we have the know-how.  At the end, we'd like to thank you one more time for your invitation and we are always at your service if we are -- if we could be of help.  Thank you.  
CHAIRMAN:  I sincerely would like to thank Mr. El Khafif and Mr. Kubursi for sharing some of their valuable information with us today.  We have copies of the reports available on the side.  I would now like to open the floor for discussion on what we have just heard.  Does anyone wish to take the floor?  Ambassador Mansour.
AMBASSADOR MANSOUR:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I also want to echo your welcoming remarks to both Professor Atik Kubursi and to Mr. Mahmoud El Khafif for being with us, and for their very useful contribution and the information that they shared with us, the ideas they presented.  Yes.  I wasn't heard before?  Okay.  
As I was saying, you know, that I want also to add my voice to welcoming both Professor Kubursi and Mr. El Khafif for being with us, for their contribution, for the valuable information that they shared with us, and the strong message that they have conveyed that the UNCTAD unit is capable of producing more if resources are available to them.
Of course, we appreciate everything that the UNCTAD unit has been doing for a long, long time.  We know that it is always possible to do more if -- technically we are okay?  Professor Kubursi?  Okay.
As I was saying, I think that, of course, the UNCTAD unit can do more if resources are available, and I think that the committee will continue to look for possible ways of addressing that issue.  As I have indicated, it is not an easy exercise in this environment, but we have to think creatively and we have to try to find ways in which -- you know, to get closer to accomplishing that objective.
Having said that, of course I think that Mahmoud recalled that we had one time maybe three/four years ago a seminar in Egypt on economic assistance to the Palestinian people.  And we were presented with two magnificent pieces of research, one by ARIJ, which is a Palestinian organization, and another one is a think tank Israeli organization operating in Israel.
These two presentations used two different methods.  I suppose that they would fall under the income approach.  But I thought that they were fascinating.  All of us thought that they are fascinating.  And I think that the pieces produced by them were heavily published by the division and circulated to extensive audience.  
What I -- what fascinated me about the different approaches used by them and the numbers that they arrived at was extremely fascinating.  The original method that was used, they took item by item of the economy and they said how much an annual basis the Palestinian economy was losing to the occupation.  And they came up roughly with the figure of $7 billion annually, very close to the GDP.  And they concluded from it if the occupation is no more, then the Palestinian economy would be able to be standing on its own feet without, you know, resorting to any assistance from anyone, let's say from the European Union and other countries.
And, in fact, if some of the assistance to remain and to be able to liberate the economy from all of these restrictions by occupation and to have the space that you refer to, one can envision that the Palestinian economy could expand by severalfold in comparison to the situation in which it's living under.  So that's one method, which was a very interesting method.
The other method used by the Israeli think tank approach, they used the comparison of GDP or per capita income of individuals.  They compared the West Bank to Jordan and they said had the West Bank remained as part of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, then their per capita income of individuals in the West Bank would be similar to Jordan.  And since they were not, so they took it year by year and they compared per capita income of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem versus Jordan and they came up with a certain figure, and they compared Gaza vis-à-vis Egypt and they came up with a different figure, and they added both figures on an annual basis and they came up with $9 billion.
So whether it's a $9 billion annually -- annually -- or $7 billion annually, not factoring many other things, including the psychological and the contraction and the expansion of the economy without restrictions, which I don't know how we can quantify it.  But the only way you can quantify it is when it happens, you see the dimension of the economy and then you can go retroactive to what was deprived in addition to the two methods that I have indicated in terms of the exact figures and then one can do the adjustment.  You are the expert in economy.  I am not.  I'm just a good student of listening to all of you and trying to reflect what you say.
So then one can say that the social aspect, the psychological aspect would be X amount of money, but in retrospection.  That will do it in the future, but we cannot tell now.  Although it is extremely valuable to try to approximate it if one may be to find ways of the size of that dimension, let's say, in the Jordanian economy and in the Egyptian economy and to try, you know, to factor it in that manner.  I don't know.  But that is an issue that could be, you know, provided.
Now for us, we are compiling effects of occupation in a negative way, not for the sake of compilation because we are compiling with regard to refugees.  Some of it, it has been done in terms of property and, you know, and things of that nature, which was done by the conciliation commission.  And we have the files; 2 million documents.  
But also what is really fascinating if you go and visit UNRWA statistical center number and you see the 35 million pieces of information in each file of refugees, you might be stunned to what should be added to the 2 million documents when we come to the level of how we settle the compensation for the Palestine refugees.  So that's one compilation.
Another compilation -- we're not there yet -- is with regard to the cost of occupation, which I believe we should systematize how we compile it.  UNCTAD is doing part.  The Palestinian government is doing part.  [inaudible] is doing part, and it's intending to expand its effort in that regard.  
UNCTAD is intending to expand its effort, so I think that this file eventually will be systematized and then, you know, we will have it also ready and available when we try to reach the level of final claims and settling of final claims.  
And then there is a third, you know, compilation that we are engaged in, which is, you know, the losses as a result of the construction of the wall, which you know I know we spend a lot of time in trying to agree into the form which was developed by, you know, the board of directors of the office in Vienna, and it adjusted and readjusted and readjusted.  Finally, we agreed into the form.
Now in the form, there is collection of all kinds of information.  And the issues related to the psychological impact and other effects of being separated from part of your land and also the collective -- the common losses of the government and the schools and public roads and what have you, there is some collection of that information, but it is a difficult way of collecting that.  But nevertheless, we are institutionalizing the process of collecting this information, although the verification process is extremely slow.
For example, they approached almost 50,000 forms collected since its inception, but the verification is only at the level of about 5,000 to 6,000.  It's a very slow process, only verified, you know, applications or forms will be considered when we move to the next stage or level of compensation.  We are not there.
But at least in terms of compensation as a result of this tragedy inflicted upon the Palestinian people by the Israeli occupation, by the creation of the state of Israel, by the partition of our homeland, etc., etc. so we have so many files that should be available, ready, accurate, and also would survive the test of challenge by anyone when we reach the level of negotiating all final status issues and end of claim, and therefore the Palestinian people to be compensated fairly and justly in accordance to -- at the level of this monstrosity of the crime that have been inflicted upon them.
In this regard, you know, your contribution is very noble, very valuable.  I'm delighted that you are with us.  Both of you participated in seminars in the past.  We will keep tapping you to give you audience to participate in future conferences, including possibly next year, because this file of trying to quantify the losses of the Palestinian people as a result -- the economic losses as a result of occupation; not all the losses, but that loss, we need to find a way to systematize it, to quantify it, and then you know, to catalog it so that it will be ready for negotiators when they negotiate these files sometime in the future.
Again, welcome.  I'm delighted to see you, and we'll be looking forward to seeing you more often.  If you want to comment about what I said by all means for the sake of expanding our knowledge and the education.  Thank you.
CHAIRMAN:  Further comments before returning the floor to our two guests?  I can see Namibia.  
NAMIBIA:  Thank you, Chair, and thank you for the very updated, relevant and critical analysis of the presentation by Mr. El Khafif and Mr. Kubursi.  I think it is important to just note that facts are better reflected in figures, and you have provided us with figures that speak to this issue.
Unfortunately, I did not read the UNCTAD report before that time, but it's definitely a must read.  And one would also have wanted to know if you would be able to provide us or the Secretariat -- or through the Secretariat -- the copies of your presentation.  I think we will appreciate that very much.
But just to say that the work that you are doing is definitely work that we could applaud you for, and, of course, at the bottom of it, as you right say, the need for the necessary resources that would be needed in all aspects to do the work that you are doing.  I think that is something that the committee could support in appealing to the bodies that are supposed to discuss, release and provide to the necessary resources the financial resources that you would need in your work.  It's very critical work, and I think at the bottom of it, as you rightly say, all work relating to finding a just and lasting solution to the Palestinian cause.  
It is disheartening that in some -- for us some circles, there seem to be no heart, no ears to feel the pain that is felt by the Palestinian people.  Otherwise, we wouldn’t have lingered around this long and for so too much [sic] to provide the necessary assistance that would be needed to alleviate the pressures and the hardship that the Palestinians are enduring on a daily basis.  
One would definitely have liked for more of your work to be made available to the larger readership as much as possible within the UN, and within other organizations that have got a role to play on this particular issue.  It's reports like this that would speak to those that would matter in trying to assist resolving this problem.  
It's a crisis, and we have all lived it, and we really just hope that enough will be done to speak to the hearts and minds of the Israeli people to at least one day get up and see the logic of the non-continuation of this occupation that have gone on for too long.  
So Mr. Chairman, I think we can just applaud the work that is being done by the two presenters, and we do hope that we will remain in touch, as Riyad has said, and that whenever we would need them, they would be available to us.  We would be able to create the platforms that would be necessary for them to present their work.  Thank you.
CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ambassador....  We are back now in the so-called 220 -- 230, sorry, sustainable development agenda.  Now we are fighting indicators, to what extent this perspective has impacted on your own work.  Thank you. 
ATIK KUBURSI:   I would like to thank Ambassador Mansour.  I mean, he raised a very important point here, is that there is more than one approach that one can take.  I mean, the [inaudible] approach, the main advantage is that they didn't look at the direct cost of the occupation.  They also brought in the perspective looking at indirect costs.  Like if you look at the direct cost of losing a land, this is the asset value.  The indirect cause would be the fact that people that used to use this land for survival now are not able to get the fruits from this land.  So we have to look at a comprehensive way of measuring where we take direct and indirect.   
One of the major conclusions of the ARIJ study is that we need a continuous, systematic and comprehensive approach, which means that it's not like one study, four years or five years ago, but it needs to be a continuous and a joint effort because everyone group would bring a perspective that in the totality would become a more meaningful one.
But the one that Mr. Chair brought about is that the issue is not to be seen in terms of one sector, two sectors, three sectors, one item, two items.  The issue is about development.  It's the perspective of how can we empower the Palestinians to exercise their inalienable right to development enshrined in the General Assembly and UN mandate.  And that's the real basic premise that goes.  
And thanks to His Excellency, the Ambassador of Namibia for bringing about the need of resources.  You can't do these things by wishful thinking.  This is something that you need to materialize and to implement, and to do so you need resources.  Thank you.  
MAHMOUD EL KHAFIF:  Just to add, I agree with Ambassador Mansour and actually I meant the -- when I said the Ministry of National Economy was an ARIJ study as well because it was done jointly, and it's a good reference, and we have been cooperating with them.  And I think we need to -- I mean, the idea also of cost of occupation, I mean, we have to have national partners.  But the reference has to be a UN reference, basically, and we have to be very objective.  I mean, we should stand against -- against any challenge as far as the methodology, as far as the data, as far as -- that's why it's not a trivial thing.  That's why we are not taking this issue lightly.
I mean, there is a bottom-up approach.  There is a top-down approach.  And I think we need to have -- ultimately, this is going to be an international document that -- international references.  That's how we will look at it.  And any contribution in this direction, it's very welcome basically and it's going to strengthen the approach and so on.
I don't want to send any wrong messages.  UNCTAD will continue doing what we could.  I mean, with the resources -- it will result to resources.  What we are saying here is that we've done quite a bit.  And when I say we are a unit, a small unit of only two professionals.  And of course, we sometimes will have some extra resources.  It's true.  But namely, our core budget is basically two key staff and one unit support staff.  We'll continue with that and very efficiently we'll do that.
But what we are saying here, the task, it's extremely important and we can do it and it has to be done.  Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN:  I thank our two presenters.  If there are no further requests for the floor, we'll move on to the next item on the agenda, other matters.  
Before we proceed, I would like to make a few announcements.  This afternoon at 3:00 PM, Mr. El Khafif and Mr. Kubursi will brief the members of G77 and the Nonaligned Movement in conference room four.  You are all welcome to attend.  
During our last meeting, I introduced you to the first batch of trainees for the annual training program for staff of the Palestinian government.  The training is conducted by the Division for Palestinian Rights.  
Today, I am very pleased to welcome another trainee, Ms. Rola Afiffi [sp], who arrived on 19 October and who will be here until 27 November.  Ms. Afiffi, please kindly stand up so the committee can see you.  Yes, please.  Ms. Afiffi is second secretary in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs at the State of Palestine.  I wish her every success in working through the very challenging curriculum of the program in connection with the 70th session of the General Assembly.  I give you the floor.  
ROLA AFIFFI:  Thank you very much.  Should I speak in English or French says the speaker?  French?  It's a pleasure for me to be here and I would like to thank you all for giving me this opportunity to be part of this.  It's going to be a great experience for me, and well, I didn't present myself.  I'm Rola Afiffi.  I'm Second Secretary in the Ministry -- in the Palestinian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.  I work in the European Affairs department.  I'm in charge of European files like the file of France, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxemburg and the Netherlands.  
Well, I am glad to be here.  I'm glad to be chosen to participate in this training course and thank you very much.  Merci beaucoup.  
CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much, Miss Afiffi.  I would also like to remind you that on the occasion of the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, the committee will hold a special meeting to observe that day on Monday 23 November from 10:00 AM to 1:00 PM in the trusteeship council chamber of the conference building.  Invitations have already been sent to all member states and observers to attend this commemorative meeting.
Given that this is a particularly important event, this annual event, and in keeping with our established practice, I would like to request all members and observers of the committee to be represented at this meeting at the highest level, at the ambassadorial level.  
I would also like to remind you that in this same invitation letter, we requested to receive messages of solidarity from heads of state or government.  It would be appreciated if those messages could be sent to the secretariat by 20 November.  
This year for the first time the division will post all messages on the committee’s website at UNISPAL.un.org, and make them publicly available in their original languages on the occasion of the day.  
I would like to appeal to all committee members and observers to actively participate in the debate on agenda item 38, the question of Palestine at the General Assembly plenary, which will begin on the afternoon of 23 November.  In addition, through your bilateral contacts and in the frameworks of the groups to which you belong, please encourage non-committee members to do the same.   
The culmination of this process will, of course, be the voting on the drafts.  Voting is scheduled for Tuesday 24 November.  I'm sure that all members and observers will be there to cast a vote of support for these draft resolutions.  
Finally, on the evening of 23 November, a cultural event will be held to mark the International Day of Solidarity and more details on that event will be made available later on.  
Did you have any questions on the cultural event?  If there are any other -- no other matters to be discussed, I will give you the floor, Ambassador Mansour.
PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY:  Sorry for taking the floor again, Mr. Chairman.  But was it intentional that we did not say anything about item four, since my friend, Ambassador of Indonesia is with us, you know, with regard to the conference meeting in Jakarta?  Or did I miss something?  
CHAIRMAN:  We discussed it at the beginning.  We can give the floor to give you some fresh information.  We discussed the program.  We'll get that information to you.  There are no further questions.  This meeting is adjourned.  Thank you. 








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